In today’s podcast, I interview Dr. Neil Nathan about some controversial topics–and nothing is held back! We talk about what holds people back from fully healing, why the order to treating mold and Lyme is incredibly important, and the best testing for urine mycotoxins. We’re also touching on why your genetics (and your HLA-DR gene) might not matter as much as you think they do, whether or not antibiotics are necessary for Lyme patients, vaccines as triggers, the difficult-to-treat MARCoNS infection, and why pushing methylation can be a pitfall. If you or someone you love is dealing with mold toxicity or Lyme disease, then this is a must-listen.

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Download the Full PDF Transcript here.


00:01:44: Dr. Neil Nathan’s new book, Toxic

00:04:17: Main sources holding people back from healing

00:06:38: Frequency of Bartonella, viruses, parasites, retroviruses in Lyme patients

00:09:43: What order to tackle infections and pathogens in

00:11:37: Dr. Shoemaker’s protocol: where we differ in testing and treatment

00:13:52: Best urine mycotoxin testing for mold

00:15:56: Other resources for mold and Lyme clients: books and ISEAI, ILADS

00:20:27: Should I take cholestyramine or other binders?

00:21:56: Tremors, internal vibrations, depersonalization, and other mold symptoms

00:26:13: How genetics (and HLA-DR gene) play a role

00:29:48: Whether or not herxing is necessary for healing

00:32:39: Dr. Nathan’s background in medical school

00:34:54: Antibiotics and healing for Lyme patients

00:36:53: MARCoNS, BEG spray, and sinus infections

00:44:28: Lyme vaccines, flu shots, and vaccine triggers

00:47:43: Why we don’t treat methylation right away

00:49:51: Cell Danger Response


Visit Dr. Neil Nathan’s website here



  1. Interesting. I believe I got Lyme in Northern California in the early to mid 80’s from a mosquito swarm. My tests were pretty much negative after all this time but my symptoms over the years are classics textbook. A neurologist I saw in the 80’s suspected Lyme but since I had never heard of it, I pretty much ignored the idea and he apparently didn’t know of any tests at that time so nothing was done except to treat my symptoms. My symptoms are diagnostic most recently I’m told of Bartonella and Babesia. I am doing lots of detoxing stuff right now and have been for several years except that now I have a knowledgable practitioner. My worst symptom now is dizziness on standing. I have comparatively little pain now. I have tried everything I have heard of that might make me better. I don’t have a chronic stuffed up nose anymore. I no longer get herpes outbreaks and no longer take L-Lysine to prevent it. I have had herpes twice inside my left eye, once when I was 10 and once when I was 60. The infection when I was 10 caused scarring of my left cornea. No one knew then what it was and no treatment worked. It gradually went away over a 6 month period. When I was 60, I knew it was the same thing I had at 10. I immediately went to see an eye doctor and she knew it was herpes and treated me with some eye gel. I was recovered in two weeks with no residual. In my mid 20’s , I had to stop drinking coffee. It made me too shakey. Now I can tolerate a cup of coffee once in awhile and no shakiness. I had to quit nursing in early 2000 because my memory was so bad. It had been bad for awhile but it was getting worse. In 2012 I had sepsis after a surgical procedure which led to severe leaky gut after which I got even worse. We are healing that now. Great interview. I have also done lots of parasite cleansing also with more to come. I can see improvement but no where near well yet. Considering how long I have been sick and not having a knowledgable practioner until recently, I think I am doing pretty good considering how long I’ve been ill and all the complications I’ve had.

    • Do you have a visual defect in your left eye? how did you get the keratitis in the first place? did you do any confocal microscopy for other pathogens like acanthamoeba or fungal pathogens?

  2. Thank you for this great interview! I also just watched your two At-Home Lyme Program videos. You mentioned the protocol being holistic and natural. However, Dr. Nathan said in the interview that mostly, even though he uses other protocols along side antibiotics, none of his Lyme patients get better without going on antibiotics. If I do not have a practitioner, does your program deal with how to determine which antibiotics would be indicated, depending on co-infections, and how to go about getting tests and prescriptions and determining proper dosage?

    Thank you,

  3. Dr Jay,
    I feel like Dr Nathan was describing my son, currently Dr Nicks patient. His struggle seems endless.
    Did his book and or interview cause you to consider any new approaches to treating Lyme/co-infections/mold toxicity?
    I thought his comment on treating with antibiotics was very significant, stating that when coupled with supplements they are key to a patients recovery.
    Please share your thoughts.

  4. I was admitted into the hospital covered in an EM rash from a known tick bite, two nymph ticks to be more specific. That was in July 2017. It took a few months and four tests to come back positive (Western blot /Elisa, Arup Labs) for Lyme, Borrelia Burgdorferi) Treated with Doxycycline at that time. Previously in 2009 tested for Lyme with a negative result because of a nymph tick I removed surrounded by a bulls-eye rash. At that time, not much was known about Lyme, even here in Minnesota, I now know I did not need a positive test result to be clinically diagnosed with Lyme. Because of the lack of knowledge, I was not treated and I also waited until I wasn’t feeling well to ask for the test so months had passed by then. I was having trouble eating, feeling dizzy and weak and thought to ask for a Lyme test having remembered something about a target shaped rash and to save the tick, I did, but had no idea why I should. I started having additional illness’s, anxiety, depression, insomnia, sweats or chills (almost never without one or the other) thinking this must be what happens from getting older, etc… following an extreme amount of stress from the economic crash that directly affected my family and a sick brother, that after a long period of bone degeneration, which eventually led to a titanium spinal implant but alcohol addiction came in to play when pain meds didn’t work for him, while he waited for the surgery to become available to him. I traveled this road with him for years because slowly everyone was leaving him. I was his big sister and I wasn’t going to let him be alone or lose him on my watch. One morning I was speaking to him, he was breathing so heavily I told him to call his doctor. Instead he called my Dad saying he thought he needed to go to the hospital. My dad found him unresponsive. He died from blood clots that stopped his heart, post surgery. By then I was so sick, couldn’t sleep, complete total emotional mess and couldn’t work, except for a few hours a day until this last time with Lyme that had me going to so many doctor appointments that my employer said I wouldn’t have a job anymore if I couldn’t be at work. I had to quit. This added another round of extreme stress, putting a huge financial burden on us. During this time, following my brother’s death, my Dad was having headaches. I thought it was from the emotional stress he was going through having lost his only son. After lots of tests, my Dad was diagnosed with a rare disease, Giant Cell Arteritis. He was treated with high doses of prednisone and a total of 23 pills a day by the time he had also passed away from blood clots. My world crashed, I have been spinning out on the inside, but I’m strong, a warrior my Dad used to say. So I fight, I hide all that’s going on as much as I can, give the illusion that all is okay, if not for me for my kids. Now, just last week, we discovered mold behind the ceramic tile surrounding a bathtub in our home. It appears it’s been there a long time. I have been not getting better after my Lyme diagnosis, have seen every specialist but never get any positive test results to explain why I am still so sick. My primary physician, an Internal MD, said he sent me to all the specialists because he was unable to help me and to look for another Internal MD. As I listen to you speak of strange symptoms, I have all of them. Even the buzzing and tingling all the time. It feels like I’m outside my body, I don’t know how to explain. I thought my problems were from Chronic Lyme because my Rheumatologist, Dr. Bryant from the University of MN, involved in the development a while back for the second Lyme vaccine attempt, told me that they don’t know why a certain percentage of people don’t respond to treatment, the tests and treatments just aren’t there, that he hoped to see them before he dies and would run a bunch a specialized tests to look for a sliver of light to find something to treat, but unless I came in with organ failure…I didn’t get that sliver of light and now wonder if the tests were negative because of poor tests or because it’s actually mold toxicity. I am now with no doctor. I have seen everyone there is with no idea where to turn. I have exhausted all of our resources and put us in financial trouble. I now hear you speak of the tremendous amount of money spent to live in a clean environment and to be treated for Lyme, Mold illness or both. I feel like I’m dying and some days almost wish I just would. Then my family would not go down with me. I fight those thoughts because I would never want to pass my pain on to my children, which is exactly what would happen if I give up. So I sit hear in bed searching the internet, doing my own research to learn all I can. When I started talking about some of the things I had learned to my Primary Physician, he told me I was speaking above his pay grade. I feel hopeless and don’t know how to get help. I’m assuming unless I have a lot of money, I won’t be one of the lucky one’s to find peace on the road to recovery. Without that, I would just like to know, am I going to die? This all sounds terrifying with known Lyme and long term mold exposure. I’m also afraid for my kids who still live in my home. They are luckily out of the house at school and work a lot of the time and don’t get the exposure I do being in my bed most of the time. If there are any idea’s about what I can do, I would be forever grateful. I’ve tried so hard but now I’m just so tired. All I can do is just hope someone will save my life. It sounds like I’m just being dramatic when I read this back to myself but it’s all true and if you can believe it, I haven’t even told half the story. Sadly, my siblings and mother think it’s impossible or at the least very unlikely to have so many problems because when they see me “I don’t look that sick” I try to tell them when I am that sick, they don’t see me. I can’t understand why they can’t figure that out. It hurts. Thank you if you hung in there and read this to the end. I usually lose most people about a minute into it. 🙂

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